What NS government type describes your ideal society?

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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by TheCavendarian » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:45 pm

Benevolent dictatorship or centrist democracy

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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by smoke40 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:34 am

somewhere between centrist democracy and civil rights lovefest
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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by TheCavendarian » Sun May 05, 2019 11:24 am

smoke40 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:34 am
somewhere between centrist democracy and civil rights lovefest
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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by Saphalus » Mon May 06, 2019 12:18 am

An actual ideal society would actually be anything resembling a realized version of the communist dream because it's a post-scarce society. Realistically, I would prefer Centrist Democracy or Civil Rights Lovefest.
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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by Paulus Augustus » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:34 am

Saphalus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:18 am
An actual ideal society would actually be anything resembling a realized version of the communist dream because it's a post-scarce society. Realistically, I would prefer Centrist Democracy or Civil Rights Lovefest.
I actually don't think that even utopian communism is good. I mean, yeah it appears good on the surface. Everybody gets their needs met. Beneath that surface, there's a sinister essence of communism - nobody has private property, it was completely abolished in favor of communal property. Similar dynamic appears in another utopian idea - one world government (good on surface level, bad deep down, even as an utopian idea and not dystopian practice). But I digress.

Humans are individuals. Those individuals have needs that must be fulfilled. Some of those needs pertain to various goods. Therefore, they should have control (as individuals) over those goods, be allowed to own resources necessary for acquiring them. That's what private property is. Communal property is the community having control over the goods necessary for an individual. It is illogical and unjust system. Why should an individual be dependent on community for providing him what he needs, instead of simply being able to own those things? Or at least things that he can use to obtain the necessary goods?

I think that we will never overcome scarcity, but our best bet to limit it is not communal ownership of property, but the expanded private ownership. "Expanded" as in, more people should own meaningful amounts of property, not in the sense that 1% should own more and more of the world. Keep the capitalist system, but breakup the monopolies, support small businesses, ensure that more people are able to own property, and establish a welfare net. I believe that's the best economic system, both in idea and in practice.

Sorry for rambling a bit.

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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by Saphalus » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:14 am

Paulus Augustus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:34 am
Saphalus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:18 am
An actual ideal society would actually be anything resembling a realized version of the communist dream because it's a post-scarce society. Realistically, I would prefer Centrist Democracy or Civil Rights Lovefest.
I actually don't think that even utopian communism is good. I mean, yeah it appears good on the surface. Everybody gets their needs met. Beneath that surface, there's a sinister essence of communism - nobody has private property, it was completely abolished in favor of communal property. Similar dynamic appears in another utopian idea - one world government (good on surface level, bad deep down, even as an utopian idea and not dystopian practice). But I digress.

Humans are individuals. Those individuals have needs that must be fulfilled. Some of those needs pertain to various goods. Therefore, they should have control (as individuals) over those goods, be allowed to own resources necessary for acquiring them. That's what private property is. Communal property is the community having control over the goods necessary for an individual. It is illogical and unjust system. Why should an individual be dependent on community for providing him what he needs, instead of simply being able to own those things? Or at least things that he can use to obtain the necessary goods?

I think that we will never overcome scarcity, but our best bet to limit it is not communal ownership of property, but the expanded private ownership. "Expanded" as in, more people should own meaningful amounts of property, not in the sense that 1% should own more and more of the world. Keep the capitalist system, but breakup the monopolies, support small businesses, ensure that more people are able to own property, and establish a welfare net. I believe that's the best economic system, both in idea and in practice.

Sorry for rambling a bit.
I agree for a large part of what you said. However, I think the idea of the Communist Utopia that I was referring to is a bit different than what you're explaining. From my own experience with people who believe in the existence of such a society, the private property issue isn't really a problem because the resource is, by their logic, beyond scarcity. That means there isn't anything to worry about. If someone takes some of "your" stuff, you still have a good amount of that stuff. A sense of 'ownership' wouldn't be a problem because you own everything with others. It's very similar to the idea of heaven. When you wish for something, that wish can immediately be true. At least that's what the Communists in the discord debate server explained to me.
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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by Paulus Augustus » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:05 am

Saphalus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:14 am
Paulus Augustus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:34 am
I actually don't think that even utopian communism is good. I mean, yeah it appears good on the surface. Everybody gets their needs met. Beneath that surface, there's a sinister essence of communism - nobody has private property, it was completely abolished in favor of communal property. Similar dynamic appears in another utopian idea - one world government (good on surface level, bad deep down, even as an utopian idea and not dystopian practice). But I digress.

Humans are individuals. Those individuals have needs that must be fulfilled. Some of those needs pertain to various goods. Therefore, they should have control (as individuals) over those goods, be allowed to own resources necessary for acquiring them. That's what private property is. Communal property is the community having control over the goods necessary for an individual. It is illogical and unjust system. Why should an individual be dependent on community for providing him what he needs, instead of simply being able to own those things? Or at least things that he can use to obtain the necessary goods?

I think that we will never overcome scarcity, but our best bet to limit it is not communal ownership of property, but the expanded private ownership. "Expanded" as in, more people should own meaningful amounts of property, not in the sense that 1% should own more and more of the world. Keep the capitalist system, but breakup the monopolies, support small businesses, ensure that more people are able to own property, and establish a welfare net. I believe that's the best economic system, both in idea and in practice.

Sorry for rambling a bit.
I agree for a large part of what you said. However, I think the idea of the Communist Utopia that I was referring to is a bit different than what you're explaining. From my own experience with people who believe in the existence of such a society, the private property issue isn't really a problem because the resource is, by their logic, beyond scarcity. That means there isn't anything to worry about. If someone takes some of "your" stuff, you still have a good amount of that stuff. A sense of 'ownership' wouldn't be a problem because you own everything with others. It's very similar to the idea of heaven. When you wish for something, that wish can immediately be true. At least that's what the Communists in the discord debate server explained to me.
Yeah, that's actually my problem. Basically, they are two takes on the private property. Either it is a figment of our imagination, a "spook", something unnatural and a construct of society... Or it is something inherently human and an indispensable right. I'm going with the latter. Every human has a right to own something outside of the community. Not because the community will not provide a human with what he wants. But because it is his right.

An example of this would be free will. I would say that every human has a right to be master of his own fate. Slavery is bad, even if the master is benevolent and cares for you, while not expecting anything ridiculous in return. Simply because it infringes on this human right of choosing your own fate.

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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by Saphalus » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:47 am

Paulus Augustus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:05 am
Saphalus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:14 am
Paulus Augustus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:34 am
I actually don't think that even utopian communism is good. I mean, yeah it appears good on the surface. Everybody gets their needs met. Beneath that surface, there's a sinister essence of communism - nobody has private property, it was completely abolished in favor of communal property. Similar dynamic appears in another utopian idea - one world government (good on surface level, bad deep down, even as an utopian idea and not dystopian practice). But I digress.

Humans are individuals. Those individuals have needs that must be fulfilled. Some of those needs pertain to various goods. Therefore, they should have control (as individuals) over those goods, be allowed to own resources necessary for acquiring them. That's what private property is. Communal property is the community having control over the goods necessary for an individual. It is illogical and unjust system. Why should an individual be dependent on community for providing him what he needs, instead of simply being able to own those things? Or at least things that he can use to obtain the necessary goods?

I think that we will never overcome scarcity, but our best bet to limit it is not communal ownership of property, but the expanded private ownership. "Expanded" as in, more people should own meaningful amounts of property, not in the sense that 1% should own more and more of the world. Keep the capitalist system, but breakup the monopolies, support small businesses, ensure that more people are able to own property, and establish a welfare net. I believe that's the best economic system, both in idea and in practice.

Sorry for rambling a bit.
I agree for a large part of what you said. However, I think the idea of the Communist Utopia that I was referring to is a bit different than what you're explaining. From my own experience with people who believe in the existence of such a society, the private property issue isn't really a problem because the resource is, by their logic, beyond scarcity. That means there isn't anything to worry about. If someone takes some of "your" stuff, you still have a good amount of that stuff. A sense of 'ownership' wouldn't be a problem because you own everything with others. It's very similar to the idea of heaven. When you wish for something, that wish can immediately be true. At least that's what the Communists in the discord debate server explained to me.
Yeah, that's actually my problem. Basically, they are two takes on the private property. Either it is a figment of our imagination, a "spook", something unnatural and a construct of society... Or it is something inherently human and an indispensable right. I'm going with the latter. Every human has a right to own something outside of the community. Not because the community will not provide a human with what he wants. But because it is his right.

An example of this would be free will. I would say that every human has a right to be master of his own fate. Slavery is bad, even if the master is benevolent and cares for you, while not expecting anything ridiculous in return. Simply because it infringes on this human right of choosing your own fate.
While I could beg to differ with a lot of what you said here, I can generally agree that the dilemma is indeed there. I personally go by with my own values which can be represented as my Five Pledges in my signature down below.

Basically, do unto others as you would others do unto you and don't cause or cultivate suffering because it is inherently bad.
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Re: What NS government type describes your ideal society?

Post by Etela Niva » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:14 am

Paulus Augustus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:05 am
Every human has a right to own something outside of the community. Not because the community will not provide a human with what he wants. But because it is his right.
Agree with this, humans have needs that can be met and shared with the wider world around them but they also have needs and rights to things that should only be shared with those in their innermost intimate circles. Communism seeks to address the wider world bit but fails to sensitively account for those inner circle experiences and needs. Its overly-simplistic in its philosophy and that tension between its utopian ideals and the actual human experience of life have been its continual downfall.
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